Airgoons
Vipergoons.jpg BMS.png
DCS.png

DCS Reference/Air Defenses: Difference between revisions

From Airgoons
Jump to navigation Jump to search
()
()
Line 213: Line 213:
! colspan="4" | Notes
! colspan="4" | Notes
|-
|-
| colspan="4" | A basic Osa battery consists of:
| colspan="4" |
* 4× TELAR
Addition of “Dog Ear” radar can extend detection range, though it may be undesirable for emissions control  
Addition of “Dog Ear” radar can extend detection range, though it may be undesirable for emissions control  



Revision as of 22:42, 1 June 2020

This resource is for players and mission designers to know the capabilities of and set up fully-featured and functional SAM groups using the many various units available under the “Air defence” vehicle category in the DCS mission editor.

Each block describes the system as a whole, the ground units it consists of, the dependencies between these units, and some very rough performance figures (in-game and wiki-based). In addition, optional units and decorative static objects that would complement the system and make them closer to the real setup are listed, even if these units generally serve no added function. The only exception is ammunition-providing M818 and Ural trucks that effectively give nearby units (within 200m) infinite ammunition capacity.

Many systems include some sort of commander unit. The functionality these units is, at best, mythical. No official explanation has ever been offered, and community answers consist of a never-ending string of unsupported claims ranging from increasing detection range, to providing faster reloads or increased rate of fire, to data-linking (…but to what, or for what purpose, no-one knows). They are not necessary to create a working anti-air group, but it is possible that some obscure efficiency parameter will be degraded by leaving them out.

Note that maximum altitudes, in particular, can be a bit vague due to the interaction between maximum sensor elevation, sensor range, and missile flight capabilities. While the maximum altitude may seem sufficient on some systems, it is often a lot lower in practice because there is a rather narrow band between where the missile still has energy enough to climb, and where the (usually) radar is still able to track a target. For maximum skylord murderness, make sure the altitude capabilities are ridiculously above where the target is expected to fly.

Italicised units are optional and not necessary for the functioning of the system. Units (mainly decorative) that can be found outside the Air Defence category have their category indicated in parentheses, as do decorations that only exist as static objects.

Basic Concepts

  • All SAM components must be in the same group in the Mission Editor in order to function.
  • All SAMs have limited ammunition.
  • Placement of an Ammunition truck (such as the Ural-375) of any kind nearby a launcher will allow it to reload.
  • SAM components should generally be placed close to each other. However, many SAMs (especially later radar based SAMS) are able to spread units as far as 25nm from the command post, enabling dispersed configurations.

Eastern systems

Radar-guided

S-75_Dvina S-75M1 Divina / SA-2 Guideline

Typical Layout of an SA 2 (minus static or nonfunctional objects). Includes Shilkas and an Igla team to cover against low approaches.

The SA-2 is a Soviet Radar guided medium range high altitude SAM system developed in 1957, but continues to see use to this day. The missiles are given remote commands from a ground operator, effectively making them Semi-Active Radar Homing.

S-75M1 Divina / SA-2 “Guideline”
Units Qty Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM SA-2 LN SM-90 6 Single-rail Launcher 1× 13DAM (V-755) Engagement: 3–23nm
Altitude: 980–98,000'
SAM SA-2 TR SNR-75 Fan Song 1 “Fan Song” Search and Engagement Radar Detection: 53nm RWR-FS.pngPO1-Medium.png
SAM SR P-19 1 P-19 Danube 1RL134 / “Flat Face B” (search) Detection: 86nm RWR-FF.pngPO1-Medium.png
(Unarmed) CP SKP-11 ATC Mobile Command Post 1 Radio Relay Van
(Unarmed) CP Ural-375 PBU 1 SNR-75 Radar Operation Van
(Unarmed) CP Ural-375 PBU 1 SNR-75 Radar Electronics Van
(Unarmed) GPU APA-80 on ZiL-131 1 ESP-90 Power generator
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-375 1-6 Transporter/transloader
(Static Cargos) Fuel Tank 2 5L22A Fuel Tank
(Static Cargos) Oiltank 2 5L62A Oxidiser Tank
(Unavailable) Rapier FSA Blindfire Tracker RV-10 Konus Heightfinding Radars Detection: 16nm RWR-RT.pngPO1-Short.png
Reload / rearm 2700s per missile.[1]
Acquisition time 40s
ME Notes

The Rapier Blindfire Tracker is a good visual representation of the height-finding radar, but is commonly unavailable to countries that possess the SA-2 and would probably interfere with detection mechanics if mixed in — a better solution is to add it as a Static Ground Vehicle object.

The system is static and cannot be driven using Combined Arms. For further information, see Technical Report APA-TR-2009-0702.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Bulgaria, but only with historical units turned off Cuba, but only with historical units turned off Czech Republic, but only with historical units turned off Egypt, but only with historical units turned off Ethiopia, but only with historical units turned off Georgia, but only with historical units turned off Germany, but only with historical units turned off Hungary, but only with historical units turned off Indonesia, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Libya, but only with historical units turned off North Korea, but only with historical units turned off Pakistan, but only with historical units turned off Poland, but only with historical units turned off Romania, but only with historical units turned off Sudan, but only with historical units turned off Switzerland, but only with historical units turned off Syria, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off USSR, but only with historical units turned off Vietnam, but only with historical units turned off Yemen, but only with historical units turned off Yugoslavia, but only with historical units turned off
Tactics

Soviet doctrinal placements of units are in a flower pattern, with sensors/logistics units at the center and launchers arranged an a circle around them spaced no more than a few hundred feet apart. However, this is a very easy arrangement to spot from the air, so guerrilla forces throughout history have been known to use other arrangements for the sake of concealment. Since reuse of sites is a common practice, these rules are frequently applied to newer SAM batteries, as well.

One of the easier systems to evade, the tracking radar is easily fooled via notching and chaff bursts of at minimum 4 per second. Missiles have no guidance of their own: defeat the track radar to defeat the missile. Missiles guidance is fairly stupid, and can be dragged into the ground. It is also completely unable to track targets at sub 1,000 ft altitudes, leaving it vulnerable to low runs. As a result, sites should also include short range anti-air able to engage at low altitudes, such as AAA guns and MANPADS.

Neva/Pechora / SA-3 Goa

The SA-3 is a Soviet Radar guided Short Range SAM system developed in 1961 as a complement to the SA-2. Missiles are guided by remote command, but DCS treats them as SARHs.

S-125 Neva/Pechora / SA-3 “Goa”
Units Qty Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM SA-3 S-125 LN 5P73 4 5P73 4-rail Launcher 4× 5V27 Engagement: 10nm
Altitude: 700–30,000'
SAM SA-3 S-125 TR SNR 1 SNR-125 UNV “Low Blow” Tracking Radar Detection: 54nm RWR-LB.pngPO1-Medium.png
SAM SR P-19 1 P-19 Danube 1RL134 / “Flat Face B” (search) Detection: 86nm RWR-FF.pngPO1-Medium.png
(Unarmed) CP SKP-11 ATC Mobile Command Post 1 Radio Relay Van
(Unarmed) CP Ural-375 PBU 1-4 SNR-125 UNK Radar Operation Van
(Unarmed) GPU APA-80 on ZiL-131 1 5E96 Cabin Power Generator Van
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-375 1 Transporter/transloader
(Static Cargos) ISO container small 1 Missile reloads
(Unavailable) Rapier FSA Blindfire Tracker 1 RV-10 Konus Heightfinding Radars Detection: 16nm RWR-RT.pngPO1-Short.png
Reload / rearm 360s per batch of 2 missiles; 720s total rearm time from a depleted state.[1]
Acquisition time ?
Notes
  • Launchers should be placed within 70m of the central guidance area
  • The transporters, containers, and radio relay van should be positioned 100m away from the central guidance area (but no farther away than 200m from any launcher so as to provide reloads); the other units should be part of the central guidance area.

The Rapier Blindfire Tracker is a good visual representation of the height-finding radar, but is commonly unavailable to countries that possess the SA-3 and would probably interfere with detection mechanics if mixed in — a better solution is to add it as a Static Ground Vehicle object.

The system is static and cannot be directly driven using Combined Arms. For further information, see Technical Report APA-TR-2009-0602.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off Cuba, but only with historical units turned off Georgia, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Serbia, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off
Tactics

Despite its short range, the missiles are rather maneuverable, and harder to shake off with fancy pilot shit. The system is also somewhat more resistant to ECM than its predecessors, but is still rendered toothless once the track radar is defeated. It can also track at lower altitudes than its predecessors.

2K12 Kub / SA-6 Gainful

The SA-6 is a Soviet Mobile Medium range SAM developed in 1958 intended to cover ground forces from aerial attack.

2K12 Kub / SA-6 “Gainful”
Units Qty Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM SA-6 Kub LN 2P25 4 Transporter Erector Launcher 3× 3M9M Engagement: 13nm
Altitude: 100–30,000'
SAM SA-6 Kub STR 9S91 1 1S91 “Straight Flush” Search/Track Radar Detection: 37nm RWR-6.pngPO1-Medium.png
SAM SR P-19 1 P-19 Danube 1RL134 / “Flat Face B” (search) Detection: 86nm RWR-FF.pngPO1-Medium.png
(Armor) APC BTR-80 1 Site Survey Vehicle
(Unarmed) CP SKP-11 ATC Mobile Command Post 1 Radio Relay Van
(Unarmed) CP Ural-375 PBU 1 Radar Test/repair Station
(Unarmed) Transport GAZ-66 1 Transporter/transloader
(Unarmed) Transport KAMAZ-43101 2 Missile Transporter
(Unarmed) Transport ZIL-131 KUNG 1 Repair/test/assembly Station
(Static Cargos) ISO container small 8 Missile reloads
Reload / rearm 600s per missile; 1800s total rearm time per launcher from a depleted state.[1]
Acquisition time 28s
Notes

P-19 radar optionally added to extend search range.

The system is mobile but cannot be directly driven using Combined Arms. For further information, see Technical Report APA-TR-2009-0701.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Abkhazia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off Iran, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Serbia, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off
Tactics

This system was designed to be a mobile point defense system to protect ground forces from aerial attack, as such it can move with them and set up within 15 minutes. It is also employed as static point defense around important installations.

Missiles are initially guided by remote command, becoming SARH in the terminal phase. The "Straight Flush" is equipped with both a tracking radar and an optical sight, making it a real life possibility to launch and guide until the terminal phase, minimizing RWR warning time and SEAD vulnerability. The possibility of a DCS SA-6 AI of any skill level or scripted behavior doing this is unconfirmed.

9K33 Osa / SA-8 Gecko

Developed in 1971, this short range low altitude SAM is highly mobile and makes for a dangerous escort for ground forces or complement to other defenses.

9K33 Osa / SA-8 “Gecko”
Units Qty Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM SA-8 Osa 9A33 4 Transporter Erector Launcher And Radar 6× 9M33 Detection: 16nm RWR-08.pngPO1-Short.png
Engagement: 5.5nm
Altitude: 21,000'
CP 9S80M1 Sborka 1 PPRU-M1 / “Dog Ear” command unit[2] Detection: 19nm RWR-DE.pngPO1-Short.png
(Unarmed) CP Ural-375 PBU 1 TELAR Calibration and simulation
(Unarmed) Fuel Truck ATZ-10 1 Tanker
(Unarmed) Transport KAMAZ-43101 1 Loading Crane
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-375 1 Transporter/transloader
(Unarmed) Transport ZIL-131 KUNG 1 Repair/test/assembly Station
Reload / rearm 5s readying time; 310s per missile; 1860s total ream time from a depleted state.
Acquisition time 23s
Notes

Addition of “Dog Ear” radar can extend detection range, though it may be undesirable for emissions control

The system is mobile and can be directly driven using Combined Arms. For further information, see Technical Report APA-TR-2009-0704.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Abkhazia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off Georgia, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Greece, but only with historical units turned off South Ossetia, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off
Tactics

Each TELAR has a radar and optical sight for searching, ranging, and tracking targets as well as for missile guidance. Can launch and track 2 missiles at a time, possibly without RWR warning if optical targeting was used.

Can lock incoming missiles but only has limited self-defence anti-missile capability in this manner. Human controllers and scripters might consider to instead just turn off the radar and scoot out of the way in event of a perceived SEAD attack. It can track while on the move, but must stop in order to fire. Shoot and scoot tactics can make this unit a very elusive target for SEAD aircraft: units adopting this tactic would be better engaged by a maverick or high altitude laser guided bomb.

S-300PS / SA-10 Grumble

S-300PS / SA-10 “Grumble”
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM SA-10 S-300PS CP 54K6 Command Post
SAM SA-10 S-300PS LN 5P85C Master TEL Launch vehicle 4× 5V55P Engagement: 64nm
Altitude: 50–150,000'
SAM SA-10 S-300PS LN 5P85D Slave TEL Launch vehicle 4× 5V55P Engagement: 64nm
Altitude: 50–150,000'
SAM SA-10 S-300PS SR 5N66M “Clam Shell” Low-altitude Search Radar Detection: 32nm RWR-CS.pngPO1-Long.png
SAM SA-10 S-300PS SR 64H6E “Big Bird” Regiment Search Radar Detection: 86nm RWR-BB.pngPO1-Long.png
SAM SA-10 S-300PS TR 30N6 “Flap Lid A” Tracking Radar Detection: 86nm RWR-10.pngPO1-Long.png
(Approximation: SAM SA-10 S-300PS CP 54K6) MAZ-543M MOBD accomodation vehicle
(Unarmed) Transport KAMAZ-43101 KrAZ-260B missile transporter
(Unarmed) Transport KAMAZ-43101 NPP Start 22T6 transloader
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-375 Ural 375 towing tractor
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-4320T Ural 4320 component tractor
(Static Cargos) ISO container Missile container
(Static Structures) GeneratorF 5I57 Mobile Diesel Power Generator
Reload / rearm 1800s per missile; 7200s total rearm time from a depleted state.[1]
Acquisition time 3s
Notes
A basic S-300P battery consists of:
  • 1× central “Flap Lid” TR
  • 4× fire units within 120m of the TR, each consisting of:
    • 1× 5P85C Master TEL (a total of 4)
    • 3× 5P85D Slave TEL (a total of 12)
  • 1× “Big Bird” SR within 250m of the TR
  • 1× “Clam Shell” SR within 500m of the TR
  • 1× CP within 40km of the TR

For further decoration, add 3× GeneratorF (1 per radar), 12× KAMAZ-43101 (3 per fire unit), 8× Ural 375 (2 per fire unit), 8× ISO container (2 per fire unit), and 4× Ural 4320T and 2× CP 54K6 near the command post. The additional CP units can (and should) be added as Static Ground Vehicle objects to ensure they do not interfere with the game-mechanical functions of the battery.

Has self-defence anti-missile capability. Can track 24 targets at once, and engage 4 simultaneously.

The system is static and cannot be driven using Combined Arms. For further information, see Technical Report APA-TR-2006-1201 and APA-TR-2008-0601-A.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off China, but only with historical units turned off Greece, but only with historical units turned off Iran, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

9K37 Buk M1 / SA-11 Gadfly

9K37 Buk M1 / SA-11 “Gadfly”
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM SA-11 Buk CC 9S470M1 Self Propelled Command Post
SAM SA-11 Buk LN 9A310M1 “Fire Dome” Transporter Erector Launcher And Radar 4× 9M38M1 Detection: 27nm RWR-11.pngPO1-Medium.png
Engagement: 19nm
Altitude: 450–45,000'
SAM SA-11 Buk SR 9S18M1 “Snow Drift” Acquisition Radar (search) Detection: 54nm RWR-SD.pngPO1-Medium.png
(Unarmed) GPU APA-5D on Ural-4320 PES-100T Mobile Power Generator
(Unarmed) Transport KAMAZ-43101 Missile Reload Transporter
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-375 9T31M1 Self Propelled Crane
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-4320-31 Armored 9V881M1 Equipment Repair/Test Station
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-4320-31 Armored 9V883M1 Equipment Repair Station
(Unarmed) Transport ZIL-131 KUNG 9V95M1 Mobile Automatic Test Station
(Static Cargos) ISO container small Missile releoads
Reload / rearm 240s per missile; 960s total rearm time per launcher from a depleted state.[1]
Acquisition time 26s
Notes
A basic Buk battery consists of:
  • 1× “Snow Drift” SR
  • 4–6× TELAR
  • 1× CC

For further decoration, add 2× Missile Reload Transporter, 2× ISO container small, and 1× every other unit listed above.

Has self-defence anti-missile capability. The launch unit depicted is the TELAR model with its own tracking radar, but it will not operate independently and requires a CC and SR to actually fire.

The system is mobile but cannot be directly driven using Combined Arms. For further information, see Technical Report APA-TR-2009-0706.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Abkhazia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off Georgia, but only with historical units turned off Iran, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Serbia, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

9K331 Tor / SA-15 Gauntlet

9K331 Tor / SA-15 “Gauntlet”
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM SA-15 Tor 9A331 Transporter Erector Launcher And Radar 8× 9M331 Detection: 13nm RWR-15.pngPO1-Short.png
Engagement: 6nm
Altitude: 60–26,000'
CP 9S80M1 Sborka PPRU-M1 / “Dog Ear” command unit[2] Detection: 19nm RWR-DE.pngPO1-Short.png
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-4320-31 Armored Missile Transporter/transloader
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-4320-31 Armored Test/repair/assembly station
Reload / rearm 4s readying time; 579s per batch of 4 missiles; 1158s total rearm time from a depleted state.
Acquisition time 9s
Notes
A basic Tor battery consists of:
  • 4× TELAR

To expand on its capabilities and provide infinite ammunition, add 1× “Dog Ear” radar and 3× transporter/transloader For further decoration, add 4× test/repair/assembly stations.

Has a radar for searching, ranging, and tracking targets as well as for missile guidance. Can launch and track 2 missiles at a time. Has self-defence anti-missile capability.

The system is mobile and can be directly driven using Combined Arms. For further information, see Technical Report APA-TR-2009-0705.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off China, but only with historical units turned off Greece, but only with historical units turned off Iran, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

ZSU-23-4 Shilka

ZSU-23-4 Shilka
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
SPAAA ZSU-23-4 Shilka Radar-ranging, self-propelled AAA 2000× 23mm HE+AP Detection: 2.7nm RWR-A.pngPO1-NA.png
Engagement: 1.3nm
Altitude: 6,500'
Reload / rearm 10s reload; 10s rearm from a depleted state.
Acquisition time 8s
Notes
Has a radar for ranging, and tracking targets, but offers no search scope in Combined Arms. Note that most eastern RWRs do not display this threat.

Has no special unit integration or setup and is normally integrated into armoured and mechanised columns alongside 9K31 Strela-1 / SA-9 SAMs. Largely obsolete, its more modern replacement is the 2K22 Tunguska / SA-19.

For further information, see Technical Report APA-TR-2008-0502.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Abkhazia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off Cuba, but only with historical units turned off Georgia, but only with historical units turned off Insurgents, but only with historical units turned off Israel, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Morocco, but only with historical units turned off South Ossetia, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

IR-guided

9K31 Strela-1 / SA-9 Gaskin

9K31 Strela-1 / SA-9 “Gaskin”
Units Function Stores Range
SAM SA-9 Strela-1 9P31 IR-guided, self-propelled SAM 4× 9M31 Detection: 2.7nm
Engagement: 2.2nm
Altitude: 100–12,000'
Reload / rearm 311s per missile; 1244s total rearm time from a depleted state.
Acquisition time 2.5s
Notes
Optical acquisition rear-aspect IR homing.

Has no special unit integration or special setup and is normally integrated into armoured and mechanised columns alongside ZSU-23-4 Shilka SPAAGs. Largely obsolete, its more modern replacement is the 9K35 Strela-10M3 / SA-13.

For further information, see Technical Report APA-TR-2008-0502.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Abkhazia, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off Georgia, but only with historical units turned off Insurgents, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Serbia, but only with historical units turned off South Ossetia, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

9K35 Strela-10M3 / SA-13 Gopher

9K35 Strela-10M3 / SA-13 “Gopher”
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM SA-13 Strela-10M 9A35M3 Transporter Erector Launcher And Radar 4× 9M37 + 4 reserve
100× 7.62mm + 900 reserve
Detection: 4.5nm RWR-13.pngPO1-Short.png
Engement: 2.7nm
Altitude: 75–15,000'
CP 9S80M1 Sborka PPRU-M1 / “Dog Ear” command unit[2] Detection: 19nm RWR-DE.pngPO1-Short.png
(Armor) APC BTR-80 Mobile Command Post
(Unarmed) CP Ural-375 PBU Training Simulator
(Unarmed) Transport GAZ-3308 Missile Repair/test Station
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-4320T Transporter/transloader
(Unarmed) Transport ZIP-131 KUNG Radar Repair/test Station
Reload / rearm 130s per missile; 1040s total rearm time from a depleted state. 12s reload per batch of 100× 7.62mm; 158s total to ream a depleted 7.62mm gun.
Acquisition time 2.5s
Notes
A basic Strela-10M3 battery consists of:
  • 4× TELAR

To expand on its capabilities and provide infinite ammunition, add 1× “Dog Ear” radar and 1× transporter/transloader. For further decoration, add 2× missile repair/test stations and 1× all other units listed above.

Optical and radar acquisition all-aspect IR homing. Has a radar for ranging, and tracking targets, but offers no search scope in Combined Arms. While they may disrupt the early acquisition, chaff and ECM have no effect on the IR-guided missile after launch.

The system is mobile and can be directly driven using Combined Arms. For further information, see Technical Report APA-TR-2009-0801.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Abkhazia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off Cuba, but only with historical units turned off Georgia, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Serbia, but only with historical units turned off South Ossetia, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

9K38 Igla / SA-18 Grouse

9K38 Igla / SA-18 “Grouse”
Units Function Stores Range
SAM SA-18 Igla  IR-guided MANPADS 3× 9K38 Detection: 2.7nm
Engagement: 2.8nm
Altitude: 12,000'
SAM SA-18 Igla comm Command unit[2] Detection: 2.7nm
Reload / rearm 15s reload; 43s per missile; 172s total rearm time from a depleted state.[1]
Acquisition time 6s
Notes
Optical acquisition all-aspect IR homing.

Has no special setup and is instead integrated into infantry columns or as a supplement to any fixed installations.

The system consists of infantry units and cannot be driven using Combined Arms.

Available to
Abkhazia, but only with historical units turned off Georgia, but only with historical units turned off Insurgents, but only with historical units turned off Iran, but only with historical units turned off South Ossetia, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

9K338 Igla-S / SA-24 Grinch

9K338 Igla-S / SA-24 “Grinch”
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM SA-18 Igla-S  IR-guided MANPADS 3× 9K338 Detection: 2.7nm
Engagement: 2.8nm
Altitude: 12,000'
SAM SA-18 Igla-S comm Command unit[2] Detection: 2.7nm
CP 9S80M1 Sborka PPRU-M1 / “Dog Ear” command unit[2] Detection: 19nm RWR-DE.pngPO1-Short.png
Reload / rearm 15s reload; 43s per missile; 172s total rearm time from a depleted state.[1]
Acquisition time 6s
Notes
Optical acquisition all-aspect IR homing, incorrectly labelled “SA-18” in spite of being the Igla-S model.

Has no special setup and is instead integrated into infantry columns or as a supplement to any fixed installations. If combined with a Sborka command vehicle, each vehicle coordinates 6 sections of Igla-S:s.

The system consists of infantry units and cannot be driven using Combined Arms.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off China, but only with historical units turned off Cuba, but only with historical units turned off Iran, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Morocco, but only with historical units turned off Serbia, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

Optically guided

2A13 / ZU-23-2

2A13 / ZU-23-2
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
AAA ZU-23 Closed Revetted static AAA gun 100× 23mm + 400 reserve Detection: 2.7nm
Engagement: 1.3nm
AAA ZU-23 Emplacement Employed static AAA gun
AAA ZU-23 on Ural-375 Mobile AAA gun
AAA ZU-23 Insurgent Revetted static AAA gun with insurgent crew
AAA ZU-23 Insurgent Closed Employed static AAA gun with insurgent crew
AAA ZU-23 Insurgent on Ural-375 Mobile AAA gun with insurgent crew
CP 9S80M1 Sborka PPRU-M1 / “Dog Ear” command unit[2] Detection: 19nm RWR-DE.pngPO1-Short.png
Reload / rearm 10s reload; 10s rearm per batch of 100; 52s rearm from a depleted state.
Acquisition time 3.5s
Notes
All firing units have the same offensive capabilities. The difference is mostly cosmetic, other than that the Ural-375 variants can be driven around, whereas the rest are static emplacements. All can be directly controlled using Combined Arms.

Has no special setup and is integrated into infantry or light mechanised columns, or used as static defences for fixed installations. If combined with a Sborka command vehicle, each vehicle coordinates 6 sections of ZU-23:s.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Abkhazia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off China, but only with historical units turned off Cuba, but only with historical units turned off Georgia, but only with historical units turned off Greece, but only with historical units turned off Insurgents, but only with historical units turned off Iran, but only with historical units turned off Israel, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Oman, but only with historical units turned off Serbia, but only with historical units turned off South Africa, but only with historical units turned off South Africa, but only with historical units turned off South Ossetia, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off Venezuela, but only with historical units turned off

2K22 Tunguska / SA-19 Grison

2K22 Tunguska / SA-19 “Grison”
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM SA-19 Tunguska 2S6 Self-propelled AAA and SACLOS-guided Missile 8× 9M311
1936× 30mm HE/AP
Detection: 9nm RWR-S6.pngPO1-Short.png
Engagement: 2nm / 4nm (gun/missile)
Altitude: 0-16,000'
CP 9S80M1 Sborka PPRU-M1 / “Dog Ear” command unit[2] Detection: 19nm RWR-DE.pngPO1-Short.png
(Unarmed) Transport GAZ-3308 Repair/test Station
(Unarmed) Transport KAMAZ-43101 Transporter/transloader
(Unarmed) Transport Ural-4320-31 Armored Repair/test/assembly Station
(Unarmed) Transport ZIL-131 KUNG Mobile Workshop
Reload / rearm 134s per missile; 1072s total rearm time from a depleted state.[1] 2570s to rearm depleted 30mm gun.
Acquisition time 4s
Notes
A basic Tunguska battery consists of:
  • 6× Tunguska

To expand on its capabilities and provide infinite ammunition, add 1× “Dog Ear” radar and 3× transporter/transloaders. For further decoration, add 3× repair/test/assembly stations, 1× repair/test station, and 1× mobile workshop.

Has a radar for searching, ranging, and tracking targets; missiles are optically guided and do not require a lock-on. Missiles can only be defeated through manoeuvring.

The system is mobile and can be directly driven using Combined Arms. For further information, see Technical Report APA-TR-2009-0703.

Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Abkhazia, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Morocco, but only with historical units turned off South Ossetia, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

Early-warning / GCI systems

These units can be turned into ground-based GCI radars by assigning the advanced waypoint actions:

  • Start Enroute Task > EWR
  • Perform Command > Set Callsign
  • Perform Command > Set Frequency

They are all static units and cannot be driven using Combined Arms, but offer detection capabilities that tie into the more realistic simulation modes of LotATC 4 DCS. The editor detection ring displays an artificial limit of how far detection scripting will report a target; actual ranges for the EWR task are much longer.[3]

1L13-3 Nebo-SV Box Spring

1L13-3 Nebo-SV “Box Spring”
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
EWR 1L13 Early-Warning Radar Detection: 65nm (scripting) / 160nm (AI EWR Tasking) RWR-S.pngPO1-EWR.png
Acquisition time N/A
Notes
Has no offensive or defensive capabilities beyond what air assets it can guide towards a threat, and should be paired with layered AA and ground assets for protection.
Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off Georgia, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Serbia, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

55ZH6 Nebo Tall Rack

55ZH6 Nebo “Tall Rack”
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
EWR 55G6 Early-Warning Radar Detection: 65nm (scripting) / 215nm (AI EWR Tasking) RWR-S.pngPO1-EWR.png
Acquisition time N/A
Notes
Has no offensive or defensive capabilities beyond what air assets it can guide towards a threat, and should be paired with layered AA and ground assets for protection.
Available to
Russia, but only with historical units turned off Algeria, but only with historical units turned off Belarus, but only with historical units turned off Kazakhstan, but only with historical units turned off Ukraine, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

Western systems

Radar-guided

Flakpanzer Gepard

Flakpanzer Gepard
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
SPAAA Gepard Self-propelled AAA 660× 35mm HE Detection: 8nm RWR-A.pngRWR-L.pngPO1-NA.png
Engagement: 2nm
Reload / rearm 1940s rearm from a depleted state.
Acquisition time 4s
Notes
Has a radar for searching, ranging, and tracking targets. Note that most eastern RWRs do not display this threat.

Has no special setup and is instead integrated into armoured or mechanised columns.

Available to
Germany, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

M163 Vulcan Air Defence Systems (VADS)

M163 Vulcan Air Defence Systems (VADS)
Units Function Stores Range
AAA Vulcan M163 Radar-ranging, self-propelled AAA 1180× 20mm Detection: 2.7nm RWR-A.pngPO1-NA.png
Engagement: 1.4nm
Altitude: 1,500m / 4,500'
Reload / rearm 1280s
Acquisition time 6s
Notes
Optical sight with radar ranging. Note that most eastern RWRs do not display this threat.

Has no special setup and is instead intended to complement the M48 Chaparral, and be integrated into infantry/light mechanised columns.

Available to
USA, but only with historical units turned off Chile, but only with historical units turned off Israel, but only with historical units turned off Morocco, but only with historical units turned off Oman, but only with historical units turned off Saudi Arabia, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

MIM-23 Hawk PIP Phase I

MIM-23 Hawk PIP Phase I
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM Hawk CWAR AN/MPQ-55 Continuous Wave Acquisition Radar (low-altitude search) Detection: 37nm RWR-HK.pngPO1-Medium.png
SAM Hawk LN M192 Launcher 3× MIM-23B Engagement: 24nm
Altitude: 200–65,000'
SAM Hawk PCP Platoon Command Post
SAM Hawk SR AN/MPQ-50 Pulse Acquisition Radar (high-altitude search) Detection: 48nm RWR-HA.pngPO1-Medium.png
SAM Hawk TR AN/MPQ-46 High Power Illumination doppler Radar (tracking) Detection: 48nm RWR-HK.pngPO1-Medium.png
(Approximation: SAM Hawk PCP) Assault Fire Command Console
(Approximation: SAM Hawk PCP) Launcher Section Controls
(Unarmed) Transport M818 M501 Loading Tractor
(Static Cargos) Container M390 Missile Pallet 3× MIM-23B
(Static Structures) GeneratorF Battery Control Central
(Static Structures) GeneratorF Information Coordination Central
(Static Structures) GeneratorF SEA 56kVA Generator
N/A Range-Only Radar
Reload / rearm 120s per launcher (3 missiles).[1]
Acquisition time 12s
Notes
A basic Hawk battery consists of:
  • 1× PCP
  • 2× AN/MPQ-56 HPIR
  • 1× AN/MPQ-50 PAR
  • 1× AN/MPQ-55 CWAR
  • 6× M192 Launchers

For further decoration, add 8× Structures/GeneratorF and 12× Cargos/Container static objects. Add 3× Unarmed M818 trucks to provide reloads and to approximate the M501 Loading Tractors.

The ROR is a fall-back system to help with ranging in a high-ECM environment. It is not simulated or present in DCS. Similarly, the AFCC and LSC are distributed systems for redundancy should the command post be eliminated. The effect of these can be approximated by adding 3 additional PCP:s.

The system is static cannot be driven using Combined Arms.

Available to
USA, but only with historical units turned off Bahrain, but only with historical units turned off Belgium, but only with historical units turned off Denmark, but only with historical units turned off France, but only with historical units turned off Germany, but only with historical units turned off Greece, but only with historical units turned off Iran, but only with historical units turned off Israel, but only with historical units turned off Italy, but only with historical units turned off Morocco, but only with historical units turned off Morocco, but only with historical units turned off The Netherlands, but only with historical units turned off Norway, but only with historical units turned off Saudi Arabia, but only with historical units turned off South Ossetia, but only with historical units turned off Spain, but only with historical units turned off Turkey, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

MIM-104 Patriot PAC-2

MIM-104 Patriot PAC-2
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM Patriot AMG AN/MRC-137 Antenna Mast Group
SAM Patriot ECS AN/MSQ-104 Engagement Control Station
SAM Patriot EPP-III Diesel-Electric Power Plant
SAM Patriot ICC Information Coordination Central
SAM Patrion LN M901 Launcher 4× MIM-104C Engagement: 54nm
Altitude: 200–80,000'
SAM Patriot STR AN/MPQ-53 PESA Radar (search and track) Detection: 85nm RWR-PT.pngPO1-Long.png
(Unarmed) HEMTT TFFT Guided Missile Transporter
(Unarmed) HEMTT TFFT Large Repair Parts Transporter HEMTT
(Unarmed) Transport M818 Maintenance Center
(Unarmed) Transport M818 Small Repair Parts Transporter
(Static Cargos) Container Parts containers
Reload / rearm 1800s per missile; 7200s total rearm time per launcher.[1]
Acquisition time ?
Notes
A basic Patriot battery consists of:
  • 1× ICC
  • 1× AN/MSQ-104 ECS
  • 1× AN/MRC-137 AMG
  • 1× EPP-III
  • 1× AN/MPQ-53 PESA Radar
  • 8× M901 Launchers

For further decoration, add 4× HEMTT TFTT (1× GMT and 3× LRPT), 8× M818 (1× MC, 7× SRPT), and 14× Containers. The transports can be added as static objects, but as always, the non-static unarmed M818 vehicle can be used to provide ammunition rearmament.

Has self-defence anti-missile capability.

The system is static and cannot be driven using Combined Arms.

Available to
USA, but only with historical units turned off Germany, but only with historical units turned off Greece, but only with historical units turned off Israel, but only with historical units turned off The Netherlands, but only with historical units turned off Oman, but only with historical units turned off Saudi Arabia, but only with historical units turned off United Arab Emirates, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

Rapier

Rapier
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
Rapier FSA Blindfire Tracker “Blindfire” Field Standard A radar guidance unit and generator. Detection: 16nm RWR-RT.pngPO1-Short.png
Rapier FSA Launcher Launcher, surveillance radar, IFF, and generator. 4× Rapier Mk1 Detection: 16nm RWR-RS.pngPO1-Short.png
Engagement: 4nm
Altitude: 10,000'
Rapier FSA Optical Tracker SACLOS optical tracking unit Detection: 10nm
(Unarmed) Land Rover 101 FC Forward Controller
(Unarmed) Transport M818 Missile Supply Trailer
Reload / rearm 240s per missile; 760s total rearm time from a depleted state.[1]
Acquisition time ?
Notes
A basic Rapier battery consists of:
  • 1× Launcher
  • 1× Optical Tracker
  • 1× Blindfire Tracker

The system should be capable of running pure SACLOS without the Blindfire radar, but will not fire if one is not povided.

For further decoration, 1× FC and 1× MST can be added to supply ammunition.

The system is static and cannot be driven using Combined Arms.

Available to
Australia, but only with historical units turned off Iran, but only with historical units turned off Iraq, but only with historical units turned off Libya, but only with historical units turned off Malaysia, but only with historical units turned off Oman, but only with historical units turned off Switzerland, but only with historical units turned off Turkey, but only with historical units turned off United Arab Emirates, but only with historical units turned off United Quitters, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

Roland 2

Roland 2
Units Function Stores Range / Symbol
SAM Roland ADS Marder-mounted Air Defence System 2× Roland + 8 reserve Detection: 6nm RWR-RO.pngPO1-Short.png
Engagement: 4nm
Altitude: 30–19,500'
SAM Roland EWR TÜR Early-Warning Radar Detection: 18nm RWR-GR.pngPO1-Short.png
Reload / rearm 3s readying time after missile detonation; 6s reload; 31s rearm per missile; 310s total rearm time from a depleted state.[1]
Acquisition time 10s
Notes
Has a radar for searching, ranging, and tracking targets as well as for missile guidance.

Has no special setup and is instead integrated into armoured or mechanised columns.

In Combined Arms, reloading and rearming the ADS is very prone to breakdowns, and missiles very rarely track outside of minimum range. The EWR cannot be driven. While nominally supported, the Roland is for all intents and purpose not compatible with or suitable for CA direct control.

Available to
Germany, but only with historical units turned off Spain, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

IR-guided

AN/TWQ-1 / M1097 Heavy HMMWV Avenger

AN/TWQ-1 / M1097 Heavy HMMWV Avenger
Units Function Stores Range
SAM Avenger M1097 IR-guided, self-propelled SAM 8× FIM-92 + 8 reserve
200× 12.7mm
Detection: 2.75nm
Engagement: 2.45nm
Altitude: 3,000m / 10,000'
Reload / rearm 40s per missile; 640s total rearm time from depleted state.[1] 30s to rearm depleted 12.7mm gun.
Acquisition time 2.5s
Notes
Optical acquisition all-aspect IR homing.

Has no special setup and is instead integrated into mobile infantry and other HMMWV / Stryker-based columns.

Available to
USA, but only with historical units turned off Israel, but only with historical units turned off Oman, but only with historical units turned off Turkey, but only with historical units turned off United Arab Emirates, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

FIM-92 Stinger

FIM-92 Stinger
Units Function Stores Range
SAM Stinger comm Command unit[2]
Stinger MANPADS IR-guided MANPADS 3× FIM-92 Detection: 2.7nm
Engagement: 2.7nm
Altitude: 3,000m / 10,000'
Reload / rearm 15s reload per missile; ~180s rearm from a depleted state.
Acquisition time 6s
Notes
Optical acquisition all-aspect IR homing.

Has no special setup and is instead integrated into infantry columns or as a supplement to any fixed installations.

The system consists of infantry units and cannot be driven using Combined Arms.

Available to
USA, but only with historical units turned off Bahrain, but only with historical units turned off Belgium, but only with historical units turned off Brazil, but only with historical units turned off Canada, but only with historical units turned off Chile, but only with historical units turned off Denmark, but only with historical units turned off Georgia, but only with historical units turned off Germany, but only with historical units turned off Greece, but only with historical units turned off Insurgents, but only with historical units turned off Israel, but only with historical units turned off Italy, but only with historical units turned off The Netherlands, but only with historical units turned off Norway, but only with historical units turned off Saudi Arabia, but only with historical units turned off Spain, but only with historical units turned off Switzerland, but only with historical units turned off Turkey, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

M6 Linebacker

M6 Linebacker
Units Function Stores Range
SAM Linebacker M6 IR-guided, self-propelled SAM and IFV 4× FIM-92 + 6 reserve
250× 25mm HE
71× 25mm AP
800× 7.62mm
Detection: 4.3nm
Engagement: 2.45nm
Altitude: 3,000m / 10,000'
Reload / rearm 0s reload per missile; 23s rearm per missile; 230s total rearm time from depleted state.[1] 515s to rearm depleted 7.62mm gun; 1300s to rearm depleted 25mm AP; 830s to rearm depleted 25mm HE.
Acquisition time 2.5s
Notes
Optical acquisition all-aspect IR homing.

Has no special setup and is instead integrated into armoured columns.

Available to
USA, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

MIM-72G / M48 Chaparral

MIM-72G / M48 Chaparral
Units Function Stores Range
SAM Chaparral M48 IR-guided, self-propelled SAM 4× MIM-72G + 4 reserve Detection: 5.4nm
Engagement: 0.2–4.5nm
Altitude: 25-4,000m / 82–13,000'
Reload / rearm 41s per missile; 335s total rearm time from a depleted state.
Acquisition time 2.5s
Notes
Originally based on the rear-aspect AIM-9D, the G model upgrade uses an all-aspect seeker from the FIM-92 Stinger.

Has no special setup and is instead intended to complement the M163 VADS as protection, and be integrated into light mechanised columns.

Available to
USA, but only with historical units turned off Israel, but only with historical units turned off Morocco, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

WWII Systems

All these systems require the WWII Assets Pack. All are optically guided and do not create any kind of firing indication beyond flashes and (minimal) barrel smoke that has to be spotted visually. All are static emplacements that cannot be driven using Combined Arms.

2cm Flak 30

2cm Flak 30
Units Function Stores Range
AAA Flak 30 Fixed AAA 20mm 2,200m / 1.3nm
Available to
Bulgaria, but only with historical units turned off Finland, but only with historical units turned off Germany, but only with historical units turned off Hungary, but only with historical units turned off Italian Social Republic, but only with historical units turned off Japan, but only with historical units turned off Romania, but only with historical units turned off Fucking Nazis, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

2cm Flakvierling 38

2cm Flakvierling 38
Units Function Stores Range
AAA Flak-Vierling 38 Fixed AAA 4×20× 20mm Engagement: 2,200m / 1.3nm
Available to
Bulgaria, but only with historical units turned off Finland, but only with historical units turned off Germany, but only with historical units turned off Hungary, but only with historical units turned off Italian Social Republic, but only with historical units turned off Japan, but only with historical units turned off Romania, but only with historical units turned off Fucking Nazis, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

8.8cm Flak 18

8,8cm Flak 18
Units Function Stores Range
AAA Flak 18 Fixed “Eighty-eight” Anti-air/anti-tank artillery 88mm Flak Engagement: 14,800m / 8nm
AAA Kdo.G.40 Kommandogerät 40 optical rangefinder command unit[2] Detection: 16nm
Notes
The variant available in DCS only fires anti-air rounds.
Available to
Bulgaria, but only with historical units turned off Finland, but only with historical units turned off Germany, but only with historical units turned off Hungary, but only with historical units turned off Italian Social Republic, but only with historical units turned off Japan, but only with historical units turned off Romania, but only with historical units turned off Fucking Nazis, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

8.8cm Flak 36

8,8cm Flak 36
Units Function Stores Range
AAA Flak 36 Fixed AAA 88mm Flak Engagement: 14,800m / 8nm
AAA Kdo.G.40 Kommandogerät 40 optical rangefinder command unit[2] Detection: 16nm
Available to
Bulgaria, but only with historical units turned off Finland, but only with historical units turned off Germany, but only with historical units turned off Hungary, but only with historical units turned off Italian Social Republic, but only with historical units turned off Japan, but only with historical units turned off Romania, but only with historical units turned off Fucking Nazis, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

8.8cm Flak 37

8,8cm Flak 37
Units Function Stores Range
AAA Flak 37 Fixed AAA 88mm Flak Engagement: 14,800m / 8nm
AAA Kdo.G.40 Kommandogerät 40 optical rangefinder command unit[2] Detection: 16nm
Available to
Bulgaria, but only with historical units turned off Finland, but only with historical units turned off Germany, but only with historical units turned off Hungary, but only with historical units turned off Italian Social Republic, but only with historical units turned off Japan, but only with historical units turned off Romania, but only with historical units turned off Fucking Nazis, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off

Bofors 40mm

Bofors 40mm
Units Function Stores Range
AAA Bofors 40mm Fixed AAA 620× 40mm L/60 Flak Engagement: 7,160m / 4nm
Available to
USA, but only with historical units turned off Australia, but only with historical units turned off Belgium, but only with historical units turned off Canada, but only with historical units turned off Czech Republic, but only with historical units turned off France, but only with historical units turned off The Netherlands, but only with historical units turned off Poland, but only with historical units turned off United Quitters, but only with historical units turned off USAF Aggressors, but only with historical units turned off USSR, but only with historical units turned off Yugoslavia, but only with historical units turned off
  1. 1.00 1.01 1.02 1.03 1.04 1.05 1.06 1.07 1.08 1.09 1.10 1.11 1.12 1.13 See https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3674493&postcount=3 for full table;
  2. 2.00 2.01 2.02 2.03 2.04 2.05 2.06 2.07 2.08 2.09 2.10 2.11 The functionality, purpose, and usefulness of command units have no clear official explanation, only conflicting unsourced community claims.
  3. See https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3117499 for a discussion on the scripting engine bug(?) / limitations.